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at the international monetary fund, annie lowry an economic policy reporter for "the new york times." steven moore, editorial writer for "the wall street journal." ken, you tear financial crisis guru here. forget the politics. just give us the math. if washington fails to avert the cliff, the worst-case scenario will be the combination of tax hikes and spending cuts. what does that do to our economy? >> well, if they don't come to a deal and then sit there all next year and don't come to a deal, we will go back into recession. it will be very, very ugly. and the united states is one of the few bright spots in the world and it will be ugly to have the whole world go into recession. but i don't think that's likely. i think if we pass for a month then they'll eventually pass something. but it shows the dysfunction in washington of not being able to pass anything. by the way, ali, the debt ceiling's coming up. they're not agreeing on that. so even if they agree on this, then in a month or two they're going to be in the same position on the debt ceiling. >> and our debt ceiling actually comes to a head
of spending restraight. >> i want to bring stephen moore back into the conversation. a lot of people don't like grover norquist you've defended him. you come from the same place in a lot of things. here's where i take issue. he said increasing taxes avoids the conversation on having the spending discussion. i said i don't think that's causal. i think we can agree we're not having a robust-enough conversation on how to deal with spending in this country and how to make government more efficient. is it a fact by raising taxes we're just not going to have that discussion? >> yeah, i believe so. i believe every time you raise taxes it reduces the pressure to cut spending and i agree with grover on that i want to take issue on one thing you said to grover that i think is a little unfair. the vote we had last week, the job boehner plan b, which actually there was no vote -- >> you know, you've been saying, these guys are just following the instructions of grover nor quest. look, i actually think republicans made a mistake personally in not approving plan b. but you know, the people voted again
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